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The problem is... currency is meant to be USED.  To buy and sell things.  Right now, if the only really useful thing I can do with HBN, is to trade it for BTC, then so be it, but since the only thing I'll be doing is taking my HBN "earnings" from my wallet, to trade for BTC, isn't that likely to simply be a drain on the value of HBN, in the long term?  Maybe that's why the value has fallen so much recently?  People earn a bunch of HBN in their wallets and then sell them.  Who knows.

 

I'd like to be able to think of my HBN wallet as a type of "savings account" for my investment (say $100 in HBN), where I can earn interest on it, but it's only usable "interest", if I can use it to buy something, not just trade it for another type of currency.

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Currency is not meant to be used. Commodities are meant to be used. Currency is a speculative asset that you acquire in the hopes of trading later for a commodity.

 

I understand your argument but there is a reason people invest or speculate. They hope or think that the value of what they are investing or speculating in will increase.

 

If you pick up a loaf of bread at the store, what are you going to do with it? You cannot eat it because then you will get arrested for shoplifting. So your intention is first to pay for it, or hide it under your coat or whatever, then to take it home. Sometime later it will be eaten.

 

Likewise if you have money in your pocket, why are you not spending it? Why do you leave it in your pocket? Because there is no use for it right now. Only later when you are at a store will there be a use for it. So should you throw it away since it has no use yet?

 

It is possible a flaw will be found in bitcoin code that will drive bitcoin to zero. It is also possible bitcoin will rise to several hundred thousand dollars per coin in the next surge. So should a person avoid it because it might go to zero? Or should they sell their children to slave traders and buy as much as possible?

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I have $100 in my wallet.  I want to buy an item that costs $100 (tax incl.).  I go to the store and buy that item.  The currency ($100 bill) has been USED and I now possess the item and can use it.  How is that speculative?  It's trade.  I am not "speculating" the item in question will be worth $100.  I know it's price and I use the amount of currency accepted, to purchase it.

 

In your argment, I am only "holding" the $100 (or the item in question) long enough to legally exchange the $100 FOR the item.  I see no other explanation.

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All through history, the values of currencies have been unstable.

 

Imagine a 500 year timeline. First no dollar. Then the dollar appears. Then very briefly, for just a moment, the $100 item you are refering to is available for $100. Soon it will not be.

 

Will the price of the $100 item go up or down? If you are convinced the dollar is stable and its purchasing power will remain intact then we differ on that right now.

 

or from a different perspective

 

Some things are natural uses. For example if you eat food you are using the food up, exhausting it, depleting it. It disappears after you do that. A sandwich does not exist after you have eaten it. So the sandwich is a commodity.

 

If you lived alone in the woods you would gather all of the commodities you needed, or die. When you needed a sandwich you would have to find one or make one. There would be no price attached, only the natural reward of finding one e.g. nourishment or the natural penalty for not e.g. hunger.

 

In a society you trade commodities. You have ten sandwiches and I have ten shoes then we trade.To speed things up we might find a portable commodity like gold or silver. Metals have specific uses as commodities but that use can also be reduced to a derivative. So silver is useful for jewelry but it has a derivative use as a trading commodity.

 

Then you can take the derivative aspect a step further and make coins. One silver coin equals one sandwich or one pair of shoes.

 

Then a step further reducing derivatives and you can make a piece of paper that represents a piece of silver that represents a sandwich. You need guns to get people to go along with that.

 

At this point in history the norm is for governments to abuse their power to create derivatives of derivatives. But their solutions all involve creating even more derivatives.

 

So then some people suggest an alternative, digital currency. Unless something better comes along it is at least pointing in the right direction. It is a very unstable market, and success depends on anticipating a lot of things, but long after your $100 item cannot be purchased for $100, it will be available for purchase with a digital currency probably.

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Ok, I get your point (kinda, sorta, maybe).  But it seems to be over-explaining the technical aspects.  I'm simply referring to the ability to use HBN to buy stuff online... which would then make having HBN more useful to me.  You need people, places, and things to do that with.  I want to know where those are, so I have a greater reason to hold HBN.  If the only thing I can really do with HBN is simply trade it for BTC at Cryptsy or elsewhere, I'm concerned that just trading my HBN for BTC, as I get more and more in my wallet (as "interest"), will only negatively affect the BTC value of HBN, to the point that it will because useless for even that.

 

There must be a stablizing factor and my assumption is that it must be where HBN can be used, by itself, to buy things with.  Particular of interest would be gift cards, like the ones I can buy with BTC.

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Nice discussion.  A few things from my perspective. I can't force any person or organization to accept HBN. The more people that ask for it for a specific site, the better the chance. But there are now many many coins, so getting a foot in the door can be hard.  But a dedicated person who can help push this forward would be great.

 

Also, as more merchants accept a particular coin, more downward pressure on the price will happen. This has been proven in BTC models. The main reason is most merchants will go straight from a coin to cash, if possible.

 

So more merchants seems great on the surface, but it can be a double edge sword.

 

That being said I would love for more places to accept HBN as payment.  I am doing what I can to to secure the network and make the wallet as fast and functional as possible. But I am only 1 person, and as I have said many time, it takes a community of dedicated people to really push things forward.

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There are a few different issues being mixed here.

 

1) For a market to be effective it has to be natural, organic. If Kmart decided to accept a coin based on their calculations, it would create a natural market and be beneficial.

 

2) An artificial market, going out and soliciting companies to accept a coin, might be useful as a marketing ploy but it is not a sound strategy.

 

3) Positive price pressure at this point comes 99% from speculators and 1% from people who want a coin they can buy things with. Even miners would rather have cash or hold onto a coin for speculative reasons than buy something.

 

4) A natural market can be created sort of, based on what worked with bitcoin. That market though starts with the user and involves users who would turn the coin into cash. The benefit from that economy comes from increased awareness of the coin as well as the removal of a quantity of the coins from speculators into another economy. The previous example was paying poor people to do grunt work online. There are places where literate people will work online gladly for usd 0.5 per hour or less, without it being exploitative. That can be done with any coin, and if it is done well it will help the coin. Again that was a significant factor in spreading awareness of bitcoin and in getting socially active people, humanitarian types, "on the bandwagon".

 

- -

 

Luposian, when you talk about a coin being useful because you can buy things online you are not being entirely accurate. There is no reason to buy anything right now with any coin, unless your purpose is to promote the coin rather than specifically to buy something. Your national currency is much better than any coin for regular purchases right now.

 

Tranz, you are a little more direct about the purpose of getting merchants "onboard", and more realistic about its effect, but my opinion is that it is a complete waste of effort. I have followed your work enough that I'll buy a coin because you are working on it, knowing mistakes will be made but the coin will improve for the long haul. In this case I think you are allowing yourself to be swept into the popular misbelief that phony markets benefit a coin.

 

However the idea of promoting a useful microeconomy, like a low income online job that pays in hbn, would be doable and helpful to the coin.

 

Here are the first 8 links for btc work on yahoo

 

http://bittask.com/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Jobs4bitcoins

http://bitgigs.com/

http://earn-bitcoins.com/

http://bitcoinwork.info/earn-free-bitcoin.

https://coinworker.com/

and so on. That is a real economy, small though it may be. It actually does help practically.

 

So a project to promote hbn that way would have a meaningful effect. Phony markets do not.

 

I'd be okay to help another person figure out how to start a business doing that but I probably am not the person to do the business.

Edited by Guyane

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Ok, let's make this as simple as possible to understand.  HBN as well as every other crypto-currency, is nothing more than digital bits (1's and 0's) going round and about, on the Internet.  Why do any of them have ANY value?  Why does a piece of metal or cotton-paper hold any greater value?  Why do we trade these things, for other things, we eat and use?  If you couldn't use them to do that, why would you even have them?  Do you like the look of a $1 bill and think it should be framed as art?!?  It gets silly at some point.  If there is no desire to SPEND $1 for something (now or later), why even have it?

 

Same thing with HBN (in this case).  Holding onto anything for speculative reasons, is done so, because you believe it will have greater value (i.e. HBN's BTC value will go up, in one example).  But, what if HBN was only worth 1 Satoshi?  Would you still hold onto it?  Probably not.  But, what if you could buy a 6-pack of soda for 600 HBN?  It would still have USEFUL value.  Holding HBN in your wallet and getting stakes ("interest") would still mean something.  Not for it's "let's get some other currency for it" (admittedly, this is what drew me to HBN initially, at 6,000 Satoshi ea.) but it's OWN value as a medium for trade.

 

There are so many different types and names of cryptocoins, it's ridiculous.  Some are utterly nonsense like "Scamcoin"... and other have a resonable name, like "Lottocoin" or "Hobonickels".  But what, honestly, makes one any better than another for trade or even speculation of value?  Who determines this?  Who thinks this?  Why?

 

At some point, it almost feels like we're in the Matrix... living within a dream construct... we THINK we're accomplishing something, but in reality, we're just dreaming.  Stuck in a vat of viscous liquid with tubes sticking out of every here and there.  If real life is lived in USD/Euro, then why do we strive to continue believing life can be lived more effectively in the realm of digital bits racing around the world via the Internet?

 

If we're going to live in the Matrix, KNOWING we're in the Matrix, at least let's not fool ourselvs into thinking our preferred set of 1's and 0's are any better than someone else's set of 1's and 0's... because all that really matters, at the end of the day, is the real world of USD/Euro's.

Edited by Luposian

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The 'real world' is what you make of it, or to quote Steve Jobs: “The people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do.”

 

If enough people agree x has value and can be exchanged for other goods then so it will be. Even the notion of intrinsic value is subjective. We didn't value gold when we were cave dwellers for example. Just because something is true today does not mean it will be tomorrow. When is the last time you used denarius for your shopping needs?

 

I got into HBN because I used to mine Bitcoin during the CPU > GPU > ASIC era, but this year it finally became unprofitable and I decided to look for alternatives. PoS mining a mature altcoin with active developers and a high (but not insane) interest sounded like a strategy worth giving a shot. Since HBN is freely convertible into BTC it functions as a kind of savings account or BTC miner and that is why I value it. Being able to spend HBN directly on goods and services would be a nice bonus but not a requirement.

 

But yes, in the end it is all bits & bytes (same goes for most fiat currencies btw) and money is simply a social contract. 

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If real life is lived in USD/Euro, then why do we strive to continue believing life can be lived more effectively in the realm of digital bits racing around the world via the Internet?

 

1 - Make a transaction in fiat, pay 10% fees, wait 5 days. 

2 - No government to fuck you over

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Luposian you are ignoring the idea of speculation. Any currency has its current value and its future value relative to another currency. If you think the future value will be higher then you buy to speculate, not to spend. Regarding the idea of actively seeking businesses to accept a coin, it is like a little kid selling lemonaid to help the government pay its bills. The intention might be cute but futile effort really should not be encouraged. Fake markets do not really do any good.

 

What makes one coin better than another? A coin has two things. It's history and its dev. You can look at those two things and get an idea of its future. Tranz has made some miscalculations in my opinion but he has always tried to look out for the smallest of investors rather than the biggest. In my opinion this attitude will be the key to any successful coin, even though it is the opposite of what causes success in fiat.

 

Also Luposian you talk about 'the real world of usd and euros'. What is that real world? It is an economy in which people you do not know can use the power of the currency you are forced to use to invade countries you never heard of for reasons that make no sense. This has led to such widespread abuse of fiscal powers that those currencies are possibly beyond saving. With crypto the medicine is obvious. If Tranz decides to add a fee to the wallet in order to buy guns to help invade Zygstgrigastan you can switch to a different currency. He cannot arrest you or monitor you as a possible threat. I don't think he plans to do that but if he does you can cast as many votes as you have coins.

 

Mostly I agree with the other commentators. However the next big rise in crypto is likely to be much more abrupt and substantial than the rise in late 2013. So if it happened right now hbn would probably rise hundreds of times faster than bitcoin. But if it happens in 6 months or a year, when there may be tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of cryptocurrencies then hbn will still outstrip btc but not as much.

 

The key thing to watch for is probably the widespread political use of an altcoin in a less developed region. My best bet right now would be a coin issued in Tunisia to support the protest movement in that region. This is the perfect opportunity and place for an explosive growth in the practical use of crypto. There is the added intrigue that most westerners are misinformed about the nature of the popular disatisfaction there. Our governments tell us one thing, reality is another thing. There will probably be huge opportunities for people who can see past the ideological bullshit being spewed on both sides.

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