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Posted (edited)

Voted for, but i've missed something. Are rewards payed in $, or in GRC?

 

I'm contributor and I'm revarded in GRC. I'm very competitive and interested in science, but my contribution is dependent of work of wallets devs. We are temporarly disabled at exchanges for 40 days. I need my reward to improve and maintain my equipment. 

We need professionals to maintaint the wallets and rewarding apps. 1.8 million of dollars in comunity wallet can assure that, but we can't cash it? Strange problem, isnt it?

sinisa_puzar grcpool.com 

Edited by sinisa_puzar

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On 3/2/2018 at 7:44 PM, Rob Halförd - (Gridcoin) said:

This plan is for March 2018 through August 2018, compensation at $60.00 per hour.

 

While I support developer pay and the increase, there needs to be justification for $60 per hour. This needed to happen before putting the poll live and it is disappointing that it wasn't. Since the poll is already live this will have to be done retrospectively.  

For example:

  • Developers have done a great job in the past six months [citation needed];
  • The value of blockchain development is more in line with $60/h than with $30/h [citation needed];
  • The cost of higher pay to the foundation is acceptable [citation needed];
  • Gridcoin wants to attract more developers and $60/h is an attractive compensation rate;
  • Gridcoin would like to encourage more of the core dev team to invoice for their work which higher pay will do;

And / or other reasons.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, GeeBell said:

 

While I support developer pay and the increase, there needs to be justification for $60 per hour. This needed to happen before putting the poll live and it is disappointing that it wasn't. Since the poll is already live this will have to be done retrospectively.  

For example:

  • Developers have done a great job in the past six months [citation needed];
  • The value of blockchain development is more in line with $60/h than with $30/h [citation needed];
  • The cost of higher pay to the foundation is acceptable [citation needed];
  • Gridcoin wants to attract more developers and $60/h is an attractive compensation rate;
  • Gridcoin would like to encourage more of the core dev team to invoice for their work which higher pay will do;

And / or other reasons.

 

I completely agree with this. The going industry software developer wage is between $30-$40 per hour. There has been no discussion about why Gridcoin developers (no disrespect to them at all here), now require double the going rate in order to do this job. Further, more money requires more accountability and security, and it's worth noting that currently the payroll is on somewhat of an honor system. What is being done in that arena?

 

I'll also point out that this poll was created in a rather unstable period in Gridcoin, with regards to the forking. Many people have taken their wallets offline until a fix has been proven. Why run a poll of such importance at this time? We need to encourage maximum voter participation here.

Edited by an0n
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1 hour ago, an0n said:

I'll also point out that this poll was created in a rather unstable period in Gridcoin, with regards to the forking. Many people have taken their wallets offline until a fix has been proven. Why run a poll of such importance at this time? We need to encourage maximum voter participation here.

Last year's compensation agreement is at the end of its term. The timing of the poll with current wallet issues is unfortunate but this is the appropriate time to discuss renewal or alteration of last year's compensation agreement.  

Wallet version 3.7.7 drastically reduced forking and 3.7.8 should have further improved the situation as well as fixing several annoying synchronization issues. There should be nothing stopping stake holders from bringing their wallets online to vote in this poll. 

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On 2/9/2018 at 10:00 AM, Frank0051 said:

Dear @Rob Halförd - (Gridcoin) ,thanks for posting. So, by my count, January would have been 6 months. I didn't see a January post, so February counts as 6 months I guess. I also tried to add up all the payrolls - but I could tell how much was paid in Sept - and I arrived at about 293K GRC (plus whatever was paid in September).

 

As our poll was only for 6 months, could we get a summary of progress so we can determine way forward. Things I think would be be important to understand:

  • Number of developers paid
  • Amount paid in GRC and mid-point USD
  • Starting and ending balance of foundation
  • Feasibility to continue this compensation program
  • Internal controls that may need to be implemented in the program is instead
  • Perhaps a plus/delta (good things and things that could be improved) based on the 6 month experience
  • The counter-factual of this program having not being in place (i.e., in your opinion did this program actually drive additional development or just reward development that would have occurred anyways given the rise of GRC to 20 cents). 
  • Number of commits covered by the compensation

Prior to approving a new compensation plan, I think we also need to see the unpublished roadmap that has been in the works by the developer team based on the various SteemIt posts and polls.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Not that it matters, but I'm a no vote until initial details are provided. When we did this poll initially 6 months ago, there was an understanding that this was a pilot to see how the response would be and to understand what impact the compensation would have on development. I have yet to see any feedback on this in the past month - combined with the fact that compensation has been doubled without explanation. 

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Gridcoin needs a paid development team at competitive rates. I have been interacting closely with the development team recently, as I have been testing in my spare time for the 3.7.8.0 and 3.7.9.0 releases. I can tell you that there has been a significant amount of time-intensive work going to get things in shape. But there is much strategic work that needs to be done... See all of the GRC 4.0 roadmap stuff.

 

Developer rates in the US for talented developers are $100k+ annual compensation plus benefits, which are typically valued at another 20% on top of that. So that is $120k/2000 hours or $60/hour. I am not sure where people are getting $30-$40 per hour as a competitive rate. It is not.

 

What I would suggest is that a poll to bridge the existing rate over for a while be voted on, and then the development team needs to post a roadmap for the future and have that roadmap approved in a separate poll, which will also move the rate to $60/hour.

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20 minutes ago, jamescowens said:

Developer rates in the US for talented developers are $100k+ annual compensation plus benefits, which are typically valued at another 20% on top of that. So that is $120k/2000 hours or $60/hour. I am not sure where people are getting $30-$40 per hour as a competitive rate. It is not.

 

Glassdoor Lists the average Developer salary as $79,604.

Payscale.com Lists the average Developer salary as $69,357

Indeed.com Lists the average Developer salary as $91,497

 

I'm not sure where you are getting $120K from. The average salary of the three figures taken from these three most popular job sites is $80,152.6. There are 52 40-hour work weeks in a year, giving 2080 working hours in a year. This salary (80,152.6 / 2080) = $38 per hour.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think our dev team is doing a bang up job. But I'd love to hear where you're getting these very high figures from. 

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5 minutes ago, an0n said:

 

Glassdoor Lists the average Developer salary as $79,604.

Payscale.com Lists the average Developer salary as $69,357

Indeed.com Lists the average Developer salary as $91,497

 

I'm not sure where you are getting $120K from. The average salary of the three figures taken from these three most popular job sites is $80,152.6. There are 52 40-hour work weeks in a year, giving 2080 working hours in a year. This salary (80,152.6 / 2080) = $38 per hour.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think our dev team is doing a bang up job. But I'd love to hear where you're getting these very high figures from. 

 

The salaries that are listed above do not include the cost of benefits. Unless the developers are classified as employees and provided benefits (such as health-care, etc.) by the Foundation, then they are considered contractors and should be compensated compared to the fully loaded cost. (Because the developers will have to fund their own benefits, unless they are getting them from another job.)  In the US, the overhead of benefits is typically 20 to 30%. I used the lower bound on this. Developers that are competent on blockchain are in extremely high demand and are not "average" by any stretch of the imagination. I am in the NY market which is higher than many.

 

I am the CEO of a 400 person company, and we have a IT developer staff of around 20 developers/architects. The salary range for those folks are $75k (very junior, brand new) to $140k+ for the architects...

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Posted (edited)

I think this has - again - happened out of the blue without any suggestion. If the poll was about the continuation of the 30$ then maybe, since arguments didn't change. But a doubling? At a bad time (which was coincidental but still)?

 

Edit: I created a poll, or at least wallet said the poll was created, atm I don't see it.

Vote if you think this topic needs more discussion or not.

 

 

Edited by LennStar

Gridcoin is cool! It helps Humanity, too!

 

Warning: politically interested person. 

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The original poll about paying developers $60 is far too vague and open ended.

 

How are we tracking how much money we're committing?  Are we agreeing to paying for 100 hours per month, or 10,000 hours, or 1,000,000 hours?  The poll doesn't say.

 

A better question might be:  Do we agree to pay developers $30/hour, up to a certain maximum per month.  It's already been mentioned that any increase above $30 needs discussion.  

 

Let's reword the question so we know for sure what we're voting on.

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17 hours ago, LennStar said:

I think this has - again - happened out of the blue without any suggestion. If the poll was about the continuation of the 30$ then maybe, since arguments didn't change. But a doubling? At a bad time (which was coincidental but still)?

 

Edit: I created a poll, or at least wallet said the poll was created, atm I don't see it.

Vote if you think this topic needs more discussion or not.

 

 

 

@LennStar,

I do not see why you have a problem with this.

 

* The voice of the people is "this pay raise is acceptable."
* The voice of the owner of the coins is "This is what I want to pay them with my own coins."


Things you might not know:

 

* The foundation wallet moved to S8VRnqQ1JZDuwSRxK4b94MiaArVULjgRUX in 2017 and has not spent any coins since then.

* The dev compensation program is being paid for by Rob, from his own wallet

* The vote for paying more is primarily YES, with no whales, and has 10x the participation vs your vote.

* The devs did not release bad code.  They inherited a time  bomb.  They worked very hard to fix it, and proved their worth.

* $60/hr equivalent is a bargain for the core resources we are getting, especially since they under-bill anyway.

 

The other things you complain about, if you really want them fixed, then you need to do the work.

 

* If you think Twitter should have had more updates, then instead of complaining after it's all fixed, you should have offered to make the tweets.

* If you think the documentation is so horrible for newbies, then instead of complaining about it, why don't you write up a better document?

* If you wish you made $60 per hour, then instead of complaining, who don't you get some code commits merged?

* If you think $60/hr is too much for anyone to make, then do the work for less.

 

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5 hours ago, Forest T. said:

The original poll about paying developers $60 is far too vague and open ended.

 

How are we tracking how much money we're committing?  Are we agreeing to paying for 100 hours per month, or 10,000 hours, or 1,000,000 hours?  The poll doesn't say.

 

A better question might be:  Do we agree to pay developers $30/hour, up to a certain maximum per month.  It's already been mentioned that any increase above $30 needs discussion.  

 

Let's reword the question so we know for sure what we're voting on.

 

You're not actually paying for anything.  So far, Rob has been paying out of his wallet just barely more than he earns in interest.

 

Did you read through the entire Developer Compensation thread ?  If you look at the discussions, plus all of the developer communications, you'll find it is fairly clear what is being paid for.

 

"mentioned that any increase above $30 needs discussion" is a bit misleading.  A very small number of people and magnitude have mentioned their opinion.  Based on the polls, only 10% of the voting population agrees with you.  Note that this excludes any whales trying to swing  the vote. They are staying out of the vote on this so far.

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10 minutes ago, xaminmo said:

 

@LennStar,

* The dev compensation program is being paid for by Rob, from his own wallet

 

I'm happy you mentioned this. 

 

I don't know everything about Gridcoin, and I was actually under the impression these funds were taken from sort of a community-controlled pool of money. I'm curious that if these are Rob's funds, why a poll was even initiated in the first place? He shouldn't need the community's approval to pay people at the rate he chooses if it's his own money, no?

 

JamesCowens also raised a good point about benefits not being included in this figure. At the end of the day, this is the kind of discussion that I had pointed out should be taking place. And I'm happy that it now is.

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Posted (edited)

I would like to begin by saying that I do fully support paying the developers. This allows Gridcoin to be consistently professionally developed and updated since the developers are being paid. In addition I believe that this is the viewpoint held by the large majority of people.


The heated topic currently is how much to pay the developers. I personally believe that $30 per hour is too low. However, many people believe that the jump to $60 per hour is simply too large of a jump. These people will most likely change their viewpoint after the following:

 

1.

A huge piece of information that a lot of people are missing is as follows:

Quote

* The dev compensation program is being paid for by Rob, from his own wallet

Just like @an0n mentioned, I believed prior to this fact that the payment was being distributed via a community controlled wallet. As I have now found out, this is a common misconception that needs to be corrected. Once people realize this, I believe that many of them will be fine with the raise. Nevermind, apparently the wallet is controlled by a community controlled fund.

 

2.

Once a better payment system is implemented. A better payment system needs to be implemented to ensure that people will not take advantage of it. This system can include things like the developers detailing more clearly than currently what did/accomplished, have them estimate how long their tasks will take before they start, etc.

 

3.

Have something along the lines of an official monthly post that the team sends out detailing what they accomplished the previous month and what they plan to accomplish during the current month. (This may already exist and I have just not stumbled upon it yet.)

 

 

 

Edited by alim3nt
new info

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