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Collatz Conjecture

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Aurum
On 12/27/2018 at 4:22 PM, dblanch256 said:

@Gunde wrote:  what we found or solve to project could be used in many ways later on. There are more to it as some project do endless raw data or a sort of simulation to store data in later in possible use cases. It could be open data for public on webpage as FIND had the goal for. There are project that have a lab/intruments and build an application and create a batches of work based on a specific parameters to get an result that could be analyzed and used to create a paper to.

 

Your insight is wise.  It reminded me of a few historical examples:

 

(1)  For years (sometimes centuries) a very few people in England, and maybe elsewhere, recorded local weather (temperature and humidity).  Although it helped them a little bit, most people thought they were crazy for taking so much time and trouble to do this.  It wasn't worthwhile, at the time.  Now 100 years later we wish we had more of this same historical data, and from more locations, to use in our modern climate and weather models!

 

(2) The early Danish astronomer Tycho Brae (1546 – 1601) took endless measurements of the planets and stars using some the very first telescopes.  Soon he had a huge number of hand-written volumes of the stuff.  To outsiders he was a bit of a freak.  Nobody at the time saw any practical value in most of his work.  Yet later, from 1600 until his death in 1601, he was assisted by Johannes Kepler, who later used Tycho's astronomical data to develop his three laws of planetary motion.  Kepler was followed by Newton who used a large portion of Brae's work as experimental proof that his simple theory of gravity was correct--not just a nice looking equation.

 

I think these examples show why we must be careful before we declare that "this project is obviously a waste of time".  Like I said before, for the purposes of Gridcoin, we should first ask "is it even necessary for all of to agree on this on a project-by-project basis?  I still think the answer to this is "no".

 

@Gunde, thank you for making me think about that!

 

-- Dave

 

Planets sweep out equal areas in equal time.

Edited by Aurum
Cerebral flatulence pinching off blood to the brain. (see edit history)

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dblanch256
4 hours ago, Aurum said:

 

Nobody caught on to why I included their banner ad. "End wasteful hashing today" like the Collatz Conjecture.

 

I think you know this, but I'm gonna say it anyway.  They meant "wasteful with respect to SHA-256" which is 100% guaranteed waste.

 

That's not exactly the same as an "I don't see the point of doing this project" because I don't care about biology--or even "I don't see the point of doing this project" because I have strong reasons to believe that it will fail (for me, that's using a computational approach to disprove Collatz Conjecture being finding an exception--which may well not exist).

 

I continue to suggest that we avoid pressing for unanimous decisions about these dicey issues because:

 

a) they don't threaten Gridcoin,

b) We'll never all agree, and

c) There is really no NEED TO AGREE.

 

It's one thing to have a passionate belief or opinion about something.  It's a whole different thing to IMPOSE those opinions on a larger group,  particularly when so little is at stake.

 

Of course, you're free to continue to discuss here, but also please feel free to message me if you'd rather not have this conversation publicly.  Up to you.

 

Happy Holidays -- Hoping Santa bought you a Connection Machine for XMAS!

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Orpy
5 hours ago, Aurum said:

 

And yet Kepler still thought the religious geocentric universe model was true.

Wow, leaping from Kepler to Newton and skipping the greatest paradigm shift in history is a stretch. The Copernican Revolution used empirical data to disprove the geocentric universe and prove that moons orbited other planets and the planets orbited the Sun not the Earth.


What nonsense.

Kepler to Newton is hardly a leap -- and no "skipping" is required as Copernicus was long dead.
 

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Orpy

Meanwhile, Collatz is excluded again...

The PrimeGrid statement on ditching Gridcoin is here:
 


Not much love shown there...

But I'm curious as to whether Collatz is getting excluded every couple of days for the same reason that the PrimeGrid admins flagged to Gridcoin: the inadvertent DDoS of project servers?

According to PrimegGrid, Gridcoin appear to have done nothing to fix this issue... is this true?
 

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dblanch256
9 hours ago, Orpy said:

But I'm curious as to whether Collatz is getting excluded every couple of days for the same reason that the PrimeGrid admins flagged to Gridcoin: the inadvertent DDoS of project servers?

According to PrimegGrid, Gridcoin appear to have done nothing to fix this issue... is this true?
 

 

With PrimeGrid there were multiple issues on both sides.  As I recall, the "back and forth" went something like this:

 

1)  PrimeGrid (PG) first accused us mounting a DDoS attack on their servers.

 

2)  After PG realized it wasn't an "attack" but just a "data scrape" they still complained about the daily "spot load" on their servers.

 

3)  Gridcoin management (C.M) proposed three or four ways to fix this.

 

4)  PG said they weren't interested in any fix because "we (PG) never really wanted to be associated with Gridcoin anyway"

 

5)  PG held a poll of their members asking "Should Team Gridcoin be excluded?" and the majority said "Yes".

      Their people had different reasons for wanting us off the project.  One member said,

      "we (Team Gridcoin) were like the BORG"--taking all their tasks and consistently winning first place.  [Well, boo-hoo!]

 

6)  The final straw was PG's assertion that "monetizing" their project would only encourage cheating and

      risk "invalidate their prior work".  [We still don't understand that last complaint.]

 

7)  In fact, they had caught cheaters years before hooking up with us, and we argued that we were more likely to

      spot future cheaters than they were--simply due to our larger membership.

 

😎 We also pointed out that "ditching us" would result in them losing %25 of their productivity.

     Their official position on this was "We don't care."

 

9)  They put out a final memo saying they were "done with us" and to please go away.  [So we did.]

 

This all happened within a week or so a few months ago.

 

I don't pretend to be unbiased, so if you want to follow this adventure for yourself, trace the posts

from  @Michael Goetz (of PrimeGrid).  Your interpretation of these events may be different than mine.

 

-- Dave

Edited by dblanch256 (see edit history)

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dblanch256

@Gunde said:  We should yes if if it is pure waste, the whole BOINC community as volunteers should be a part and get an interest of it if so.  I do get an view and thought on if raw data collecting or simulation could counted to users to be a waste or not. I am not sure my self on to this and end up with many "if" to this.

 

".. end up with many "ifs"...

 

In my opinion, there is a single "correct way" to do this.  But it's highly impractical, and I still claim irrelevant for all practical BOINC/Gridcoin purposes.

 

But just for the sake of discussion (pretending there is a high cost for building a "pointless project") here's what I suggest:

 

Subject each project proposal to a university graduate level review.

 

Remember when you did your thesis, and what the guidelines were?  ("Original work which contributes to the field.")

Naturally "contributes" implies a judgement call--but not by you--by the faculty who are the academic leaders in their field.

 

You see where I'm going with this?  Let the math professors judge math projects,  biology leaders judge biology projects, and so on.

Impractical?  Hell yes.  [Not going to happen for us--just trying to make a point.]

 

Reading these forums, we think we're all experts in all areas, which obviously we are not.  That's why people here often say

irresponsible things like "I don't see why this project couldn't just count backwards by sevens instead."  Shit, I may have done that myself

from time to time, but I try to speak within the limits of my actual expertise.  I also try to avoid "whining" and making wild claims

only to provoke an argument. 

 

In summary, the Utopian approach I described above is not feasible.  Therefore we should be seeking the Least Objectionable Alternative (LOA)

which I believe is "to each his own".  Nothing wrong with "batting things around" and comparing notes.  But I don't see a justification for 

"project censorship", 

 

So my view continues to be: "If you don't want to work on a project, than don't work on it."

 

-- Dave

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Orpy
1 hour ago, dblanch256 said:

So that's what happened over roughly one week a few months ago--as best I can remember.


Thanks for the summary... the thing that concerned me most was the owner of the yoyo project chipping in in that thread to support PrimeGrid's decision 😞

But that still leaves the question: why is Collatz being excluded so often?

 

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Aurum
15 hours ago, dblanch256 said:

 

I think you know this, but I'm gonna say it anyway.  They meant "wasteful with respect to SHA-256" which is 100% guaranteed waste.

 

That's not exactly the same as an "I don't see the point of doing this project" because I don't care about biology--or even "I don't see the point of doing this project" because I have strong reasons to believe that it will fail (for me, that's using a computational approach to disprove Collatz Conjecture being finding an exception--which may well not exist).

 

I continue to suggest that we avoid pressing for unanimous decisions about these dicey issues because:

 

a) they don't threaten Gridcoin,

b) We'll never all agree, and

c) There is really no NEED TO AGREE.

 

It's one thing to have a passionate belief or opinion about something.  It's a whole different thing to IMPOSE those opinions on a larger group,  particularly when so little is at stake.

 

Of course, you're free to continue to discuss here, but also please feel free to message me if you'd rather not have this conversation publicly.  Up to you.

 

Happy Holidays -- Hoping Santa bought you a Connection Machine for XMAS!

 

That's not what their ad says. Disproving the Collatz Conjecture is a complete waste of electricity that adds heat to the Earth without benefiting mankind one iota.

A reasonable person considering making a philanthropic donation to support distributed computing would see The Collatz Conjecture as being frivolous and wasteful and look elsewhere to do good with their money.

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dblanch256
10 hours ago, Orpy said:


Thanks for the summary... the thing that concerned me most was the owner of the yoyo project chipping in in that thread to support PrimeGrid's decision 😞

But that still leaves the question: why is Collatz being excluded so often?

 

 

Thanks for mentioning "the yo-yo factor".  I didn't know that!

 

With respect to Collatz, I haven't been following it, but from what you said "it is being excluded SO OFTEN" it sounds like it might be glitchy technical problems rather than the "one time blowup" we had with the PrimeGrid project leadership.  But honestly, since I'm not running Collatz tasks, I don't really know.

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Orpy
2 hours ago, dblanch256 said:

With respect to Collatz, I haven't been following it, but from what you said "it is being excluded SO OFTEN" it sounds like it might be glitchy technical problems rather than the "one time blowup" we had with the PrimeGrid project leadership.  But honestly, since I'm not running Collatz tasks, I don't really know.


It seems to be excluded for 24-48 hours at least once a week to me...

Enough to make me contemplate locking my wallet to avoid staking while excluded -- get the feeling that I'm doing a lot of work for no GRC every time Collatz is excluded for 48 hours!

Is anybody logging the exclusion frequency?
 

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Orpy

Down for a whole week...

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Orpy

The gridcoin.ddnss.net Project Listing page showing that Collatz is both Whitelisted and Suitable for Rewards, but it's still excluded.

Anybody know where you can get reliable information about project exclusions?
 

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